When will we stop delaying the progress...

When we stop boosting / nerfing strategies based on a single map(not even a map, just the specific Europe+) and start boosting them for the equilibrium of all the maps.

Two years since the custom maps and units, and NC still doesn't boost Naval: Defense units, RA doesn't boost Gound: Secondary attack units, SM doesn't boost Air: secondary attack units either. I for once believe those units role should'be taken into account to fit the theme of the strategy.

RP doesn't even have stealth units

Well the thing is for the default world map strats are balanced no matter what way you look at it. And for all other maps there is nothing stopping you from creating new units to boast or nerf units and strategies accordingly.

Eshkruar nga minusSeven, 04.10.2015 at 13:18

Well the thing is for the default world map strats are balanced no matter what way you look at it. And for all other maps there is nothing stopping you from creating new units to boast or nerf units and strategies accordingly.

1. Default map is not balance, in fact, it can't be balanced. This is just a notion that people have since they had been playing it a lot. A true balanced map can only be achieved by mirroring the map (Just like True Competition, this is a 100% balanced map).

2. Strategies can't be altered in custom map, but their units.

---

When you look at it, default map is just another map with Ivan and Amok as creators. Units should'be balanced in their relation to other units since this is the most fair way to balanced them out.

1. Define the att/def of a common secondary unit/
2. Define the boost or nerf the strategy will give to said unit's role.
3. Let the MapMaker to balance them out. When I say MapMaker I am also including Ivan and Amok, too.

Eshkruar nga clovis1122, 04.10.2015 at 13:28

Eshkruar nga minusSeven, 04.10.2015 at 13:18

Well the thing is for the default world map strats are balanced no matter what way you look at it. And for all other maps there is nothing stopping you from creating new units to boast or nerf units and strategies accordingly.

1. Default map is not balance, in fact, it can't be balanced. This is just a notion that people have since they had been playing it a lot. A true balanced map can only be achieved by mirroring the map (Just like True Competition, this is a 100% balanced map).

2. Strategies can't be altered in custom map, but their units.

---

When you look at it, default map is just another map with Ivan and Amok as creators. Units should'be balanced in their relation to other units since this is the most fair way to balanced them out.

1. Define the att/def of a common secondary unit/
2. Define the boost or nerf the strategy will give to said unit's role.
3. Let the MapMaker to balance them out. When I say MapMaker I am also including Ivan and Amok, too.

Then I guess you need to suggest something very specific you want altered like basic units type and its specific boost and nerf based on the strategies.

Eshkruar nga SyrianDevil, 04.10.2015 at 13:43

I'm just waiting for 'Communism' strategy to try with USSR in WWII.

-2 defence, -30 cost (similar like blitzkrieg, just instead range - cost)

Eshkruar nga Skanderbeg, 04.10.2015 at 13:53

I'm just waiting for 'Communism' strategy to try with USSR in WWII.

-2 attack, -30 cost (similar like blitzkrieg, just instead range - cost)

isnt that just a weak ass imperialist?

Eshkruar nga Evic, 04.10.2015 at 13:55

isnt that just a weak ass imperialist?

I meant -2 defence, i edited now. Minus attack is Imperialist, minus defence should be Communism but cheap troops because of real WWII where communist armies had greater casualties than nazis and capitalists but cheaper units hence minus defence. But strategy should be used on every map, not only WWII map.

Support this, I was wondering why this hadn't been implemented already

Eshkruar nga Skanderbeg, 04.10.2015 at 14:25

Eshkruar nga Evic, 04.10.2015 at 13:55

isnt that just a weak ass imperialist?

I meant -2 defence, i edited now. Minus attack is Imperialist, minus defence should be Communism but cheap troops because of real WWII where communist armies had greater casualties than nazis and capitalists but cheaper units hence minus defence. But strategy should be used on every map, not only WWII map.

I feel like that strat would be too weak :x One TB and GG

Though would love to see a test game with it to see what occurs

Eshkruar nga Skanderbeg, 04.10.2015 at 14:25

Eshkruar nga Evic, 04.10.2015 at 13:55

isnt that just a weak ass imperialist?

I meant -2 defence, i edited now. Minus attack is Imperialist, minus defence should be Communism but cheap troops because of real WWII where communist armies had greater casualties than nazis and capitalists but cheaper units hence minus defence. But strategy should be used on every map, not only WWII map.

I feel like that strat would be too weak :x One TB and GG

Though would love to see a test game with it to see what occurs

Eshkruar nga minusSeven, 04.10.2015 at 13:50

Then I guess you need to suggest something very specific you want altered like basic units type and its specific boost and nerf based on the strategies.

Yup.

Defining a standard for those type of units might be hard since there are a lot of undefined units, but I've though about several ways to do it: For example, we could define the standard for a Ground: Secondary Attack unit as follow:

1. By using the existing relationships: Excluding upgrades, tanks have 2 more attack than infantry defense, and cost double, also have one extra range. Using militias, then its secondary attack counterpart should have 6 attack and cost 60 cost, also 3 range. This is a little weird and not practical.

2. An even more useful way would'be to look which stats the mapmakers usually put to those type of units, as far as I have see it is 7 attack 3 defense and 100 cost, also 6 range.

3. It could'be to talk with some selected MapMakers to establish a standard with them, since they are the ones who uses those units anyway.

et

Maybe this night I'll do some research and try to suggest something more specific.

BUMP.

New strategy changes - one step for europe+, but a great fallback to the rest of the default map and even custom maps/scenarios.

Trench warfare is broken and MapMakers have to either disable destroyers or create Naval: Other destroyers. Both options will disable NC from being playable, anyway.

Eshkruar nga clovis1122, 04.10.2015 at 13:15

When we stop boosting / nerfing strategies based on a single map(not even a map, just the specific Europe+) and start boosting them for the equilibrium of all the maps.

Two years since the custom maps and units, and NC still doesn't boost Naval: Defense units, RA doesn't boost Gound: Secondary attack units, SM doesn't boost Air: secondary attack units either. I for once believe those units role should'be taken into account to fit the theme of the strategy.

do you believe fitting the theme is more important than balance?

Eshkruar nga clovis1122, 20.10.2015 at 15:02

BUMP.

New strategy changes - one step for europe+, but a great fallback to the rest of the default map and even custom maps/scenarios.

Trench warfare is broken and MapMakers have to either disable destroyers or create Naval: Other destroyers. Both options will disable NC from being playable, anyway.

Can you describe to me where you feel there is a fallback for the rest of the default map due to these changes? Also due to the vast number of scenarios/custom maps and the fact that the mapmaker has control of balance they are not considered when editing the strategies. Only a small handful of mapmakers make their maps with them in mind. Maps with the default units only are considered. They are what atwar and the strategies were built around.

Support

Clovis dude at all we have the ability to make diffult europe map with making what ever units we want i can do a playable map with good units in 30minute as i have made long ago a version of only eu+ so i dont need to disable all world countries when ever i want make map of europe+ only
when ever one likes the map you may make and its units they will add those ideas in
also new units mean new upgreads = use for the 1million unused sp we have=more goals to active=more interesting game=more sp farm= ZAZAZAZA
also the 1+ cop for NC destroyer wont give any fag the advantage in the war to end all wars ww1 or anyelse map because we wont go NC while we have only 10 reinforcements in sea and some 500 unit in land... admins know what they are doing as our best friend laochra is providing them reasons and declaring research to do any change in game play.
Please someone translate this cause i write any bullshit that comes to mind with out stripping it!
Thanks

But there are a countless number of custom maps but one default map. How can you account all those? If only accounting for the famous ones then the others receive the same effect anyway. The key is units can be changed on custom maps but not default.

You know what we need? Custom strategy creator (with restrictions)!

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

But there are a countless number of custom maps but one default map. How can you account all those? If only accounting for the famous ones then the others receive the same effect anyway. The key is units can be changed on custom maps but not default.

You know what we need? Custom strategy creator (with restrictions)!

Custom strategies for maps I'd support, the mapmaker would be in charge of balance. Can't have custom everywhere though as the reality is there will be a few really op setups which anyone who want to win will have to use or be trampled over with, even if you attempt restrictions to balance.

Eshkruar nga Xenosapien, 22.10.2015 at 08:35

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

But there are a countless number of custom maps but one default map. How can you account all those? If only accounting for the famous ones then the others receive the same effect anyway. The key is units can be changed on custom maps but not default.

You know what we need? Custom strategy creator (with restrictions)!

Custom strategies for maps I'd support, the mapmaker would be in charge of balance. Can't have custom everywhere though as the reality is there will be a few really op setups which anyone who want to win will have to use or be trampled over with, even if you attempt restrictions to balance.

They would have to do something similar to fps "pick" system let's say you have 6 alteration point for your strategy attack boost from default cost 2 subtraction minus 2 there by if you take stats from the default number it allows more point in other catagories.

Example: Facistism +1 attack marines -10 cost to all -1 defence to all, +1 range.

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

But there are a countless number of custom maps but one default map. How can you account all those? If only accounting for the famous ones then the others receive the same effect anyway.

Custom maps are the future of atWar, and every change need to take it into account. Since the MapMaker have certain power over his units stats, he can try balancing his map on his own, so strategies doesn't needs to be changed that often.

If any change is needed, and believed necessary, it should'be done arguing about the units gameplay in different zones and not in a single map. It also must take the units stats compared to their counterpart in other strategies. We can define a standard, and let the MapMakers decide whenever implement or not this standard.

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

The key is units can be changed on custom maps but not default.

But there is no standard for said changed, and that makes hard to boost the different units that the game offers you (which is the main point of this thread). The default units can't be considered a standard since they lack of Naval: Defense and a lot of other common custom maps units. Said units standards need to be created with their common values, then we can talk about boost/Nerfs. Maybe I'll get those values when I am extremely bored (Desu-like, hue).

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

You know what we need? Custom strategy creator (with restrictions)!

Many players had suggested this before. My proposal seems to be the most complete one atm: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20155

But this doesn't matter as long as strategies are boosted around one map. I've wrote many times about the NC destroyers capacity, that doesn't even fits in the theme of the strategy and broke several maps mechanics, and even made some combos stronger in other zones of the default map. Two examples:

1. NC Taiwan became slightly stronger in 5k Asia (despite being already the stronger pick, or the one who will win most of the times), and you don't need that extra trans anymore to break Korea walls or even to wall bursa. You would require 4 infantries and one sea trans, now you can use 2 destroyers and load 2 infantries (from the ones who survived in shangait). With the two destroyers you block bursa, and with the two infantries you break Korean walls. Blocking bursa is always a good move because a Korea without japan is condemned to death in late game (as long as you hold your own territories, which is quite easy to do as NC).

That is not the only thing, you can also do NC Taiwan expansion without any sea trans turn 1. That one unit matters a lot in case of rush, and even contribute to a superior battle stacking bonus.

2. The trenches mechanics were broken in The War to end all Wars, which is also atWar most popular scenario. You could go NC and bypass the trenches, that for some countries were the only thing that prevented them from being killed (there were few sea trans for very few countries). Imagine NC UK using destroyers to get Syria, Bulgaria NC to cap Serbia, NC Austria to cap Italy (Look http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=22296 ). It was a mess and Aetius had to change the destroyers to another unit role so they doesn't get the NC boost anymore. NC became unplayable and killed from the map.

---

The capacity change looks interesting, and I do like it. But I haven't yet to find any good thing that it had done but break the existing mechanics. Now imagine that changes just like this one are made every month. Then, MapMakers would have to balance their map every month just to adapt to the new mechanics, which doesn't flavor them anyway.

The default map will always be the map the game is designed to for one simple reason. That reason being that a map maker has the power to edit all aspects of there units essentially this is a great thing, while on the other hand you can't task amok with editing the world map every time there is a chang to the meta game, to most of community excluding clovis the only people who even care are Duelers and competitive players, rp doesn't even have marines for Christ sake.

My second point being the issue of competence in map makers, not every map maker takes the time to actually balance there maps even I have been guilty of this in the past, how do you expect amok to balance strategies to so many maps most of which are popular for the fact they are easily exploitable to win (rp, got, un, acient,etc) It is fact that the forementioned maps are sp farms ally fag (deplomacy as they call it) gang bang maps. It makes far greater sense for him to follow the formula all successful strategy game follow, which is to balance the game to developer content.


Lastly I feel as if most of clovis's arguement are fueled by the fact he is bored, he needs these conflicts in his life in order to feel like he is making a change even though what he wants would be essentially bad for the community, iv seen him over the years turn one solid discussion after another into madness because he has an un canon ability to take every thing out of context AE simply change what was wrote to help his goals and swaying the opinions of unfettered masses to see his point of view even though it's just wrong. I never saw this as a problem Untill I had him do it to me earlier. It's disheartening when you see so many people striving for the same thing then you have clovis over in his own little world clouding judgements and pushing for unhealthy practices, iv had enough and I know others have Aswell say no to clovis. I have seen him over the years master this form of misinformation he is so kean to use on those with arguement other then his. Hell back when he first started this brand of trolling he barely spoke any English, and that just what this is clovis trolling. The entire threads point is to see if he can force toxic change on a weakened community looking to see any change at all and it's fucked up. I truly love this game and when I see shit like this it pains me deeply. Sorry for ranting on but I needed to get this off my chest. Iv decided to mute clovis for a period of time to stop any sort of disheartening misinformed flame war he will spew up from this trying to alienate my arguement, good day gentlemen.

Your comment would be a lot more legit if you had decide to PM me rather than posting in public.

Anyway, you're free to have your opinion - I respect it.

Eshkruar nga clovis1122, 22.10.2015 at 15:51

Your comment would be a lot more legit if you had decide to PM me rather than posting in public.

Anyway, you're free to have your opinion - I respect it.

i don't think you know what the word "Respect" actually means.

Eshkruar nga clovis1122, 22.10.2015 at 10:49

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

But there are a countless number of custom maps but one default map. How can you account all those? If only accounting for the famous ones then the others receive the same effect anyway.

Custom maps are the future of atWar, and every change need to take it into account. Since the MapMaker have certain power over his units stats, he can try balancing his map on his own, so strategies doesn't needs to be changed that often.

If any change is needed, and believed necessary, it should'be done arguing about the units gameplay in different zones and not in a single map. It also must take the units stats compared to their counterpart in other strategies. We can define a standard, and let the MapMakers decide whenever implement or not this standard.

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

The key is units can be changed on custom maps but not default.

But there is no standard for said changed, and that makes hard to boost the different units that the game offers you (which is the main point of this thread). The default units can't be considered a standard since they lack of Naval: Defense and a lot of other common custom maps units. Said units standards need to be created with their common values, then we can talk about boost/Nerfs. Maybe I'll get those values when I am extremely bored (Desu-like, hue).

Eshkruar nga The Tactician, 22.10.2015 at 06:15

You know what we need? Custom strategy creator (with restrictions)!

Many players had suggested this before. My proposal seems to be the most complete one atm: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20155

But this doesn't matter as long as strategies are boosted around one map. I've wrote many times about the NC destroyers capacity, that doesn't even fits in the theme of the strategy and broke several maps mechanics, and even made some combos stronger in other zones of the default map. Two examples:

1. NC Taiwan became slightly stronger in 5k Asia (despite being already the stronger pick, or the one who will win most of the times), and you don't need that extra trans anymore to break Korea walls or even to wall bursa. You would require 4 infantries and one sea trans, now you can use 2 destroyers and load 2 infantries (from the ones who survived in shangait). With the two destroyers you block bursa, and with the two infantries you break Korean walls. Blocking bursa is always a good move because a Korea without japan is condemned to death in late game (as long as you hold your own territories, which is quite easy to do as NC).

That is not the only thing, you can also do NC Taiwan expansion without any sea trans turn 1. That one unit matters a lot in case of rush, and even contribute to a superior battle stacking bonus.

2. The trenches mechanics were broken in The War to end all Wars, which is also atWar most popular scenario. You could go NC and bypass the trenches, that for some countries were the only thing that prevented them from being killed (there were few sea trans for very few countries). Imagine NC UK using destroyers to get Syria, Bulgaria NC to cap Serbia, NC Austria to cap Italy (Look http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=22296 ). It was a mess and Aetius had to change the destroyers to another unit role so they doesn't get the NC boost anymore. NC became unplayable and killed from the map.

---

The capacity change looks interesting, and I do like it. But I haven't yet to find any good thing that it had done but break the existing mechanics. Now imagine that changes just like this one are made every month. Then, MapMakers would have to balance their map every month just to adapt to the new mechanics, which doesn't flavor them anyway.

Sorry for the not removing the lengthy texts but if I remove some I'll screw up the quotes (coz im noob).
-I agree that maybe the strategies don't need to be changed in small bursts but rather a big update every few months. Although, strats went unchanged for so long maybe this recent (1 year prolly) frequent changes were needed to balance.
-Like I said before there are so many custom maps balancing based on the famous ones would still not be fair, and there is only one default map, and that's the most played map. Custom maps plays can't be counted together in terms of priority is because each map is different with different units. If a map comes close to the default map plays combined then it should probably be taken into account too.
-I like the NC boost because NC had a very specific niche and even though it's natural strong pick is now even stronger; it has been brought to be more playable in more places.

Helly's suggestion on the custom strat creator is exactly what I had in mind and it's good.

When will YOU stop delaying the progress...(in coherent thought processing)

Eshkruar nga b0nker2, 24.10.2015 at 12:29

When will YOU stop delaying the progress...(in coherent thought processing)

You forgot Case Solved XD

Eshkruar nga b0nker2, 24.10.2015 at 12:29

When will YOU stop delaying the progress...(in coherent thought processing)

Custom maps are the future of atWar, how I am delaying the progress b0nker?