29.01.2014 - 20:50
Apparently, the point is being missed. 1. Rarely do I personally join these coalitions. I'd rather have a few big wins than many medicore wins. 2. This isn't about 'me' -- this is about game playability. For me, 'greatest overall playability' should be the goal. Perhaps your goal is the cult of the elite. Eventually AW would be a pretty lonely place. 3. If any particular player 'never' allies, and is happy with the outcome, clearly there is no need to change/alter/affect the playability. Also, I have noticed very very few rank-limited games. Apparently high-rank players are very interested in low-rank SP, but not in competition, per se.
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29.01.2014 - 22:06
Is AW a representation of football, or a representation of International Diplomacy and War? Among the reasons why the football analogy is a horrible horrible representation of AW Game Settings application: 1. In Football, diplomacy means little at the per-game level (but might be significant in game fixing, association rules-bending and tournament selection). Football is refeshing because it is simple, gameplay is generally apolitical, rules are enforced and victory frequently goes to the most able. In AW, and in International Relations, diplomacy is of significant importance. 2. In Football, there are only two teams playing, and the the game is binary zero-sum. In order for one team to win, the other must lose. In AW there are multiple independent players, with different tolerances for risk, different valuation for win, etc. Each player can choose to sacrifice a little potential SP to avert the risk of a large loss of SP (in the case of alli ends). They can also choose to put that potential SP at risk and fight. You can choose to consider yourself as one team, and everyone else as another team. But ultimately you may be happier in a 1v1. 3. One can desire that 'international relations' (war and diplomacy) are governed by rules and referees with clear winners and losers, associations and bylaws, but international relations are often complex, ambiguous and with a high degree of duplicity. 4. One is asked to imagine a game of football. Imagine instead International Diplomacy and War: - Everyone is a high-rank, high reputation player. There is an uneasy peace, with many interlocking and complicated alliances. Austria-Hungary, possibly reacting to a Serb invasion, declares war on Serbia. WWI begins. Russia, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Turkey and eventually, Japan, Australia and the United States are dragged in. - You and your allies possess unquestioned superiority over Continental Europe. Your nearby enemies cannot effectively mount counteroperations; you will likely win the war of attrition. Their primary ally remains at peace with you, and is 4-8 turns away, anyway. Seizing a temporary advantage, your ally Japan attacks their ally, the United States, and now you are obligated to declare war too. With fresh troops against you, and your enemy supplied with money, you are outspent and outfought and lose. - Fresh from your triumph in the Great Patriotic War, your comrades in northern Korea are successfully bringing Lenin to their southern neighbors, on the point of a bayonet. For an unrelated reason, you turn your back on the UN Security Council, and the remaining powers take a vote, which you *could have vetoed* and the UN intervenes. You should have won there, and maybe worldwide, but with fresh troops against your ally and your enemy supplied with money, you are outspent and outfought. Your influence, which once dominated 1/2 the planet, is smaller than your pre-1940 borders. - You're the most powerful nation in the world. Your closest rival doesn't really approach your might and wealth, but only he knows this for certain - you are forced to match him troop for troop in Europe, Latin America, and Asia. Your ally, France, loses city after city in Vietnam. You reinforce Vietnam but are unable to stop the China-and-USSR funded onslaught. Just a few turns ago, both were your allies. One specific case where the football analogy is quite adequate: Football is a highly-styized, ritualisised abstraction of combat, centuries of tradition, and very locale-oriented (the emergence of 'international' teams is recent). A football game could be accurately said to represent one battle. AW is a an abstraction of international relations: Diplomacy and War (many battles, 100s of skirmishes), very recent, and highly international.
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30.01.2014 - 10:19
I understand your point of view, zombieyeti, but I have to disagree with it. Diplomacy and alliances are there to benefit what you call "the majority", or the low ranks. In a whole world game, set up with 3 maximum alliances, for example, 3 lower ranked players could ally against me, having as much time as I do to make their moves, including the movement priority over me as a bonus. These rules were clear to everyone in the game since the start and I have nothing against it. "Ally-fagging" is there to prove my point and, in many cases, the mob will win against the lone player. Now, changing the rules while in-game has nothing to do with diplomacy, since I can't even negotiate the terms if the majority decides to use it against me. Allowing late joiners, changing the turn time to 1 minute (or 48 hours to avoid a loss) are cheap moves from someone that has already the advantage position. Yes, this game is about diplomacy and war, but it's still a game and should be oriented by rules. If you have 4 friends playing a risk game and 3 of them decided to unite against the one winning, they will still have to roll the dices and the chances will be equal. And even if the majority wants, there is no way to place two bring to more friends in the middle of the game to help
---- "Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms".
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30.01.2014 - 11:03
Somebody is using alts to vote for no change. 230 votes, only 75 people have seen the topic, bullshit alert.
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30.01.2014 - 12:26
Question: IF it is true that the number of voters is far exceeded by the number of viewers, how do you know that the alts are voting for no change?
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30.01.2014 - 12:36
I think I understand your argument, but before I jump to conclusions however, let me be clear so we do not suffer the 'sin' of equivocation. Changing the Game Settings is not changing 'the rules'. And the rules apply to everyone, equally. As they should. Before I could fairly address your other (Relevant and resoned) arguments, we would have to agree that changing the settings IS NOT changing 'the rules'. Changing the rules of a game is unfair and, and essentially, cheating. That being said, if changing the Game Settings IS INDEED considered changing the rules, we have a very different argument. Changing the rules is unjust. I found no prescription against changing Game Settings, but I am only rank 5. If changing the Game Settings is indeed changing the rules "I tremble with indignation" myself. All this being said, the mechanisms of diplomacy and the excellently-balanced warfare part are what make this game singular.
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30.01.2014 - 13:48
Why would somebody bother to kill other players, if a mob its just gonna jump on them if they dont ally-end with people that kill nobody the entire game.
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30.01.2014 - 14:11
This particular post addresses the perception that changing game settings is tantamount to changing game rules. I agree that changing game rules, midgame is 'cheating', but I [i[do not[/i] contend that changing game settings is changing game rules. I hope I am not breaking any forum rule by replying to an out-of-band question. --- "Why would somebody bother to kill other players, if a mob its just gonna jump on them ..." How often does that happen? In my limited experience, never, and if it were to happen, then the dominant player should have made one or two tactical alliances to avert this, losing some potential SP to avert risking a lot of potential SP. - IF 'mob rule' was an actual issue, and so loaded with advantages, why wouldn't high-rank players just take advantage of the 'cheat' offered and gang up on low-ranks? Probably because a)its no fun and b)SP/minute played average is low. - IF 'mob rule' is a feature of low-ranking games, then why don't more high-ranks just play games with rank-threshold limitations. It's very very rare to see such a thing occur. High-rank players are happy to take low-rank player SP, but seem to be adverse to anything that might put such predation at risk. --- Does everyone consider AW to be a war-game, which does its best when it can supply the grand banquet that is worldwide diplomacy and war, balanced with rapid playability? Hitler and Napoleon both were denied ultimate victory by Grand Coalitions. I find it difficult to believe in the years this game has been played, that this is only now arising as an issue.
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30.01.2014 - 18:56
My biggest complaint about the current process is when the rules are offered, you cant say no. its either ignore or vote yes. in my opinion if 2/3 of people want the change it should be legal, but be able to vote no. Thanks -Freeland
---- -Freeland how cliche after every post.
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31.01.2014 - 14:14
The calm voice of reason, thx pin.I have been a lil busy and really could not take too much time to respond to that long post by zomb
---- "When you connect to the silence within you, that is when you can make sense of the disturbance going on around you." ― Stephen Richards
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01.02.2014 - 16:25
You failed to read the evidence presented to you:
Rather than addressing the issue, you tried to justify it with "Mob Rule"
This is not a Diplomacy game, its a war game. if you want diplomacy you can play UN.
This will only make high ranks to stop playing world maps, and the few that remain playing will have to ally-fag.
The host should decide if he wants the settings changed or not, if you don't like it: join another game with a different host.
High ranks are persons too, not having allies is already bad, why do you want to take advantage of this by changing time? of course you don't understand this due to your limited time in this game.
There is a big difference between loosing to low ranks and loosing because the enemy team cheated and changed settings to their advantage.
Low ranks have a lobby for them, once they become rank 5 they are suppose to learn how to play. This current system is not only abused by low ranks, but by high ranks alike, what if a bunch of high ranks change the time to defeat a rank 5 that its really good? eh?
you are speaking as if the minority choose to be the minority. what if i am playing a game and only 2 people are left, they both are determined to kill me and refuse to ally-end with me, since i am too pro for them, they decide to change the time to 1 minute?
Again, this is not a "Social" game, but a "War" Game, the main goal is to kill the other 19 players in the map. if the minority wants to have no allies, so be it, changing time to defeat him is clearly cheating.
99% percent of the Mob are butthurt players that where suppose to lose, and exploited the system to change the time.
The elite is the people that pay for premium and make maps to keep the game running, if a bunch of freebies leave due to being noobs, so be it. any other person that wants to rank up and is of good sport is welcome to stay.
This is not the problem, neither people making mobs againts them, but the fact that the settings are being changed to cheat.
Changing the settings is indeed changing the rules.
Again, read the first posts, everybody agrees that mobbing and changing time is a problem
Because Most high ranks are not douche bags
There is no enough high ranks to play with, its hard to feel a game of +7 with that only requires 6 people.
EVERYBODY considers >At War< a War game, if you want diplomacy go play UN
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01.02.2014 - 16:39
Responses below.
[D:] you are speaking as if the minority choose to be the minority. what if i am playing a game and only 2 people are left, they both are determined to kill me and refuse to ally-end with me, since i am too pro for them, they decide to change the time to 1 minute? [ZY:] Your phrasing speaks volumes, but again I'll be charitable. I think you mean [3] people, 2 v 1, and it appears you're not looking for advice on winning, but to describe a very likely scenario. You lost. Either you're not pro enough, or your lead wasn't decisive enough, or your enemy focus is not on SP maximization, or your diplomacy failed, or some combination of the four elements. When they change the time to 1 minute, it is 1 minute for everyone, isn't it?
[D:] Again, this is not a "Social" game, but a "War" Game, the main goal is to kill the other 19 players in the map. if the minority wants to have no allies, so be it, changing time to defeat him is clearly cheating. [ZY:] Diplomacy. Voting. Negotiations. Alliances. Clans. Chat. Forums. Facebook connect. Incentives to invite friends. AW is very much a war game, and AW is very much a Social game. In this particular claim I have no idea what game you're playing. AFA goals: Maximization of SP/Turn played is a goal. Winning vs. SP is a goal. Getting rep may be a goal. idk what drives players, but finding that out and delivering is the art and science of game development.
[D:] 99% percent of the Mob are butthurt players that where suppose to lose, and exploited the system to change the time. [ZY:] Sauce?
[D:] The elite is the people that pay for premium and make maps to keep the game running, if a bunch of freebies leave due to being noobs, so be it. any other person that wants to rank up and is of good sport is welcome to stay. [ZY:] So, my goal is greatest overall playability. And your goal is for ...?
This is not the problem, neither people making mobs againts them, but the fact that the settings are being changed to cheat. [ZY:] Clearly that's not what you think is the problem. Higher rank players feed on lower-rank players SP, fear lower-rank players may bind together against them.
[D:] Changing the settings is indeed changing the rules. [ZY:] When did the momentous change occur? This I do not know, and I combed the 'news' section.
[D:] Again, read the first posts, everybody agrees that mobbing and changing time is a problem [ZY:] And again ... "then the dominant player should have made one or two tactical alliances to avert this, losing some potential SP to avert risking a lot of potential SP."
[D:] Because Most high ranks are not douche bags [ZY:] How many are, and how many are not, then?
[D:] There is no enough high ranks to play with, its hard to feel a game of +7 with that only requires 6 people. [YT:] If this is the concern, then I would definitely look to drive lower-rank players to *want* to earn high rank, by providing opportunities for the occasional victory.
[D:] EVERYBODY considers >At War< a War game, if you want diplomacy go play UN [ZY:] See above to either expand your knowledge of what I assumed was common, everyday understanding ("War is the continuation of Politik by other means", "The Supreme Art of War is to subdue the enemy without fighting") or maintain your ignorance of the basics of War, and Wargaming.
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04.02.2014 - 06:44
Removed some trolling comments. Please stay on topic, dont insult each other. Additional note: Players can vote directly on the main page without visiting this discussion. That is the reason why the amount of topic views and total votes differ. This applies to ALL of our players pretty much. Players want wins and players want SP. No one likes to lose a game when he invested hours to play it. And it is the exact same reason some players attempt to change the game settings in their favor - or do you really think they consider game setting change a fair diplomatic option? They are going for the SP just like anyone else, only that they dont make use of the whole game play repertoire AW has to offer. Instead they exploit flaws in the mechanism that has been implemented to prevent abuse.
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04.02.2014 - 15:49
Couldn't be assed to read all the arguments just skimmed through, but anyone who thinks high ranks play with no allies for SP has a misguided opinion, halfway through rank 9 SP becomes totally irrelevant in terms of what you can do with it, so basically we are playing for the challenge. Its not all about SP.
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05.02.2014 - 10:41
Excellent points. 'Fair minded' players want some balance of wins/SP. Question: What leverage do lower rank players have to exert pressure on higher rank players to ally, in the case of many lower-ranking players vs. a few higher rank players? Question: Does changing the game turn time "lower" constitute an abuse, in your opinion, in all cases, especially if most players want shorter/longer turns? Note: Clearly, changing a game from 'Quick' to 'Casual' (or the reverse) is bad. Changing the 'type' of game is one thing, changing the duration of the game turns is another question. If this is a point that players want to have conceded, it is freely conceded by my. If I signed up in the Casual Room, then a Casual game is what I'm looking for. I agree AW gameplay is not all about SP at all times for everyone (for example, I'll never break an alliance merely to win SP, and I'll ally with clan members even if it will reduce my SP share), and players, ultimately, are those who decide where in AW their happiness lies (winrate/SP maximization/rep something else). SP may not be useful past a certain rank for 'spending' but it is still the best of two ways to keep score (wins being the other), because, in a social game with points, points do matter! Since ally ends result in wins, the issue therefore must be SP OR (as you mention) some kind of internal satisfaction that is not measurable. Whilst winning against all odds/all players is a 'fair' minded goal, it does speak to an unmeasured aspect of the game. Contrast this to the various forms of douchebaggery (trolling). Not measured, not fair-mided, but clearly satisfies some internal satisfaction of some players. --- If your argument is that Game Settings should require unanimity to be changed, because you want to pursue an internal goal, personally I appreciate your honesty, but would it be fair for everyone in playing the game you're playing to be bent to your internal goal, especially when they're looking for SP or wins?
New approach for the same discussion. The games in AW, at contention, are comprised of at least three players, and, likely many more. If most people want to go from 4 minute turns to 3 minute turns, or from 1 minute turns to 10 minute turns, isn't that the fairest way to go? Should the one person who doesn't want the change be the reason everyone else receives less enjoyment from the game? If turn duration changeable by the majority is 'new' what was the previous state, and why was their a change? --- I agree that the fundamental nature of the Game should not be changeable from Quick to Casual or vice-versa. If you force me to argue within the flawed football analogy *challenge accepted* 1. Time Stoppage/Added Time/Game suspension etc. In association football, these are mediated by the referee. There is no impartial authority monitoring every game in AW at every time. The Game System itself is the closest AW has to an impartial 3rd party monitoring the gamespace at all times. --- At all times, when a question of fairness manifests with no answer, certainly, one player shouldn't be the judge. 2. If I am hearing the opposition to the status quo correctly (vis. you) then the Game Settings are being changed specifically in recognition of "the progress you have worked for in the ongoing game". Yes, the minority may receive a handicap; longer turns are not a handicap though, so we must be referring to shorter turns. Shorter turns are a handicap to the currently winning players, if they are in the minority. That being said, shorter turns increase the opportunities of the side with more players. The only fair in warfare is at it's end. I just made that up. Clever, for a pun, eh?
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05.02.2014 - 17:42
Just to clear some things up: 1st - host changes settings at will 2nd - majority vote current - majority of all "teams" vote So far everytime it got changed due to abuse and it still is getting abused as much as ever. And dont quadruple post pls, you can edit your post, check the top right hand corner of it.
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06.02.2014 - 11:39
lol goblin, while i sympathise and have been on the receiving end of similar tactics, i had to laugh. you really do seem to attract the scum of atwar =/
----
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07.02.2014 - 11:20
If we require everyone to agree to game setting changes, that is the fairest way to do it. The worst thing that will happen is that we will need to check the game settings much more carefully before joining a game. We should show game settings on the overview of all the games so that we do not have to waste time looking for a good game.
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AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi |
08.02.2014 - 13:43 AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi
I think that most of those who voted for "no" are the typical and classic The current vote system MUST be changed, it is unfair. Unanimous agreement seems to be most rational system to me, since there's no other good ideas. I do not support to make it as option. Most of games would have the option to change settings turned on.
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08.02.2014 - 15:55
I think we should establish a minimum number of votes for settings to change. Games with 5 or less players should require unanimity for settings to change, but games with more than 5 players should allow changes by majority vote. This would stop players from abusing the current system (most abuse happens in games of < 6 from my experience) but still allow large games to make important changes.
Good idea. Can the host change the padlock settings in-game? If so: If the host wants a setting changed, he will simply uncheck the padlock box and get his allies to vote for the change. The host's enemies do not have this power, so the game is still unfair for them. I don't think the host should have more power than any other player over the game.
Excellent argument Vril, I hope that anyone who thinks manipulating game settings to give themselves an advantage is "fun" will seriously consider these words. It's not about who is a crybaby, etc. but rather about good sportsmanship (which the majority is usually lacking).
---- Åδîαßα┼îc [img]http://atwar-game.com/user/309908/signature.png[/img]
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11.02.2014 - 01:25
A lot of times, when trying to ally end, one player may not be accepting the changes and trolling or trying to get more SP. Maybe show the players who have accepted the changes?
---- ..... sushi
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12.02.2014 - 13:44
Clarification on the current voting system: Scenario: 20 person game, all players still alive and active. There are 4 alliances (including one overlap), and four players without alliances. Alliance A: 11 people. Not allied with anyone else. Players A1-A11 Alliance B: 3 people. Players B12-B14. B12 is also allied with C15. Alliance C: 2 People. Players C15 and C16. C15 is also allied with B12. Alliance BC: 2 people (already counted against the 20) B12 and C15. Unallied: 4 people. C17-20. Question: How many 'teams' are there for voting purposes? I see 8. 4 unallied people, 2 alliances where the set of players does not overlap with another set of players, and 2 alliances with overlapping sets of players. Source: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=4545 If this is indeed the case, then many complaints against status quo are groundless, except in the marginal cases where alliances form, break up for the purposes of voting, then re-form after the vote has concluded. I doubt that most players even understand the current voting weights. In other words, the current voting system, while complex, effects a balance between the 'interest' groups. Granted, this balance is a bit heavy towards the minority interest, without pandering to unanimity (where one troll can ruin it all).
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AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi |
19.02.2014 - 10:03 AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi
I'm pretty sure this vote is not fair. A LOT, and MOST of people who voted, voted in the main page just because they like to play unfair, and did not even get into the thread to read. Plez dunt taek this vote as srs, iven. And I think that the current system is not actually good. What if I wanna play 1min turns and then people who don't like it change it to 2,3,4? And what they said, too, it's pretty ab00seable. Even an unanimous agreement system would be better, for every setting. If you don't like settings, leave.
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21.02.2014 - 15:09
If you total "Yes" and "No, a new system is needed", then you end up with more people in favor of changing the current system. Restricting game settings changes to when 100% players agree is probably not the best solution. It would have been better to just ask "should the way game options are changed be modified?" (yes or no). I'm fairly sure most would have agreed to modifications. There are just so many ways the game options change can be abused. A specific solution could have been discussed & voted on later. IMO, the best solution proposed so far is a way for the host to lock certain settings.
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23.02.2014 - 00:26
My feelings are that the "host" should have the greatest (but not exclusive) say in changing the game settings. The host, after all, was the one that created a certain game setting which everyone else decided to join. One way to handle this is to have the host with veto rights over game changes. If the host wants to change the settings, he/she needs at least one more person (or maybe >30% if there are many playing) to agree. If anyone other than the host wants to change the settings, the host must agree. In this way, the person creating/hosting the game cannot get overwhelmed by a group of friends that joined the game, et cetera.
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AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi |
23.02.2014 - 17:17 AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi
Sorry, this idea is just bad..Hf with host buds & more exploiting. If this gets implemented, I swear I'll troll a lot in scenarios xD. The ONLY way to make settings not exploitable, is to make everything unanimous agreement. And make the max. alliances unchangeable. People still allyfag on me, specially when I farm in my map The Hexagon
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28.02.2014 - 18:40
Host should be able to veto a majority decision on settings change. This way he can't just change settings as fits himself, but still is able to excert enough control to at least keep the settings as they were.
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08.03.2014 - 15:57
If it is changed so that 100% of players have to agree, There will always be that one person who ignores the game settings tab when a turn ends.
---- http://www.webestools.com/page/images/uploads/signature_Wobsleoset6628.png
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AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi |
09.03.2014 - 13:41 AlexMeza Llogaria u fshi
It is still best system. People should join games with settings they like. They can't go into a game and change the settings because they like that way. Current system, and every system I have read at the moment, is exploitable. Unanimous agreement isn't.
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